First question would be that before Mirza Sahib, say even birth, which of the Islamic or sects within Islam would you say was the true one according to your belief, thought? You know every sect of Islam has large elements of truth even today because this truth cannot be considered to have abandoned Islam altogether at any time in history. If you study the Holy Qur’an you will be surprised to learn something which the present ulema would not admit but the Holy Qur’an says so categorically that even among the Jews there are very pious and righteous people, God-fearing people.
And also among the Christians and also the Holy Qur’an testifies to the truth of all the old books despite the fact that they have been interpolated and changed materially and substantially. So it is impossible for an Ahmadi or any other Muslim to believe that there exists a sect of Islam which is totally wrong. The truth has been shared in many regions by many sects and also falsehood gradually crept into them through a long process of historical decay. So this is why they can’t agree with them. It is a simple logical question which you should understand. The fact is there are 72 sects at least and they differ with each other in fundamentals.
So can’t you see that some of them must be wrong somewhere? But if I can just relate to the Hadiths of the Prophet, not exactly but near me, the essence is that there would be 72 sects altogether, one would be the right one and the rest would go to hell and stay there. No, it doesn’t say that. Ok, up to there then. But my question was that which is the most nearest to the truth one. That’s my question. Alright, if that is the question, this question was asked at the time when Rasul-Allah made this statement, this question was asked of him by one of the companions.
So why to waste time in answering that question differently because when a correct answer has already been given by the founder of Islam, peace be upon him, that is the answer which still stands good for all of us to accept. Ok, which is Sunni. Yes, Sunni. So one of the presidents at that time raised exactly this question. Ya Rasul-Allah, man ha-ulai, who will be those fortunate ones who are exempt according to you, who will be the right Jama’at. Right, which is called? Jama’at. Just Jama’at, nothing else.
Yes, according to Rasul-Allah, peace be upon him, there would be 72 sects, but the 73rd he does not refer to a sect, but as Jama’at. So that is also one very important difference which should be kept in mind. Yes. Now when he said that just one Jama’at will be heavenly, the question was asked who that Jama’at would be or who those people would be. The answer was ma ana alaihe wa sahabi. You will find them to face exactly the same situation as I am facing and my followers are facing. They will be found in the same condition as myself and my followers are found today. So that was the most illuminative answer that was given by Rasul-Allah, peace be upon him.
Now you can apply this answer to the modern situation and very clearly say like the daylight which can never be consumed by night, you can positively say which that Jama’at would be. What happened to Huzoor-e-Akram, peace be upon him, at that time, what was happening to him and his followers? Is that not clear to you? Yes. What was happening to him? What was happening to Huzoor-e-Akram? When he made the claim that there is no God but one and Muhammad is his servant and his prophet, was he and his followers later on, were they permitted to make this claim publicly?
Or were they beaten and punished for this? Yes, okay, but I think you are going away from the point. You may think but I am not going away at all because I am directly on the point. The statement is a statement which can be verified from history. What was the condition of Huzoor-e-Akram, peace be upon him, and his followers? Vis-a-vis the rest. There are two parties involved, 72 on one side and one Jama’at on the other.
At the time of Huzoor-e-Akram also, there were several parties opposed to him, not only one party. Mushrikeen of all sorts, Ahle Kitab of all sorts, old and the new Ahle Kitab, and he was facing a situation along with his followers which is very clear from the study of history. And there are no two opinions about it. It begins with the right to profess. Now, the most fundamental profession that is to be made by a Muslim was La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah. And they were denied that. They were persecuted. They were dragged in the streets. They were nearly killed. Tortured, you know, in such a beastly manner that even today when you study that history, that most sad part of history, you feel like crying. What happened to Bilal? Why it happened to him? He was saved from the fangs of death by Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddiq A.S. when he was passing by the street and he saw him almost being murdered for the crime of professing Kalima La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah. Is that not happening today to Ahmadis and to Ahmadis alone?
That is my question. And to none else. And who is responsible for treating Ahmadis like this? The rest of the 72 sects or not? Yes, as far as I understand, the rest of the 72 sects do not help each other. I don’t think they are together in that sense. All the sects in Pakistan without exception are at one in this attitude. Show me the statement of one sect published in any Pakistani paper or anywhere condemning roundly and clearly the treatment of Ahmadis regarding this. You know in the Sharia court and in all the councils which decide about the laws of Sharia etc. All the important sects of Pakistan are represented.
Shias and Sunnis, Wahabis, Devbandis and Ahle Hadith and Barelvis, everybody is represented there. And that council has unanimously declared that this should be the treatment of Ahmadis if they declare Kalima La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah. So how can you say that some sects should be exempted from this? The reason being that as we know that all the sects are different from each other and they will not agree with each other. That’s why they are different. I am not surprised that they are not helping Ahmadis or anybody else. No, no, I am not saying that. They agree on this emphatically. That this is the treatment which should be meted out to Ahmadis for professing the ever eternal truth that there is no god but one and Muhammad is his prophet.
That is understandable you see. Because they differ. If it is understandable then already you have decided your fate. Then you want to join that party which has always been opposed to truth like this. No, but I am also trying to say that I belong to one sect. How can you belong to that sect while you are not in the position in which Rasulullah S.A.W. was found? Because the criteria… If there are to be 73 sects, I have to be part of them. Let me first proceed further. The criterion for that truth was further clarified in other aspects. They were not permitted to build mosques.
They were not permitted to preach to others. They were not permitted to worship god as they thought fit. Is that not right? Probably. Probably? Be honest enough, please. If I can’t locate it, I will not admit anything. You don’t admit? If the holy Quran says it is fair enough. The holy Quran says It says whoever is worse than the person then the one who stops people from saying prayer from my servant that is Rasulullah S.A.W. when he does that and you say you are not sure. So first of all be sure of your history of Islam and the facts of your own sect.
All the treatments which were meted out to Rasulullah S.A.W. and his followers in the name of religion are exactly being repeated to Ahmadis and in that the rest of the 72 sects have joined hands. History is being created right under your noses and you don’t want to take note of that. And still you claim you are the sect. How could you be the sect? Show me one similarity. From what past what happened to Rasulullah S.A.W.? Have you ever been bodily prevented from declaring Have you ever served a sentence in prison? I haven’t been in that situation.
Any member of your community? Show me one. Yes. Who? Where? Just about La ilaha illallah. Yes? Yes. Show me, tell me one. Ok, I’ll give you an example of Maulana Abdul Latif. Which Maulana Abdul Latif? JLM sir. He was in prison for the fact that he said La ilaha illallah. Well, if you are defending Islam all the aspects would come into it. Just a moment. I’m talking of one particular thing. The fundamental thing.
So this is what you mean you have not come for debate but for inquiry? This is what you call honest inquiry? To be honest, I’ll say that again. You have not the patience to listen to the answer to the whole Well, you ask me a question and I’ll give you an answer. That’s what I’m doing. No, no, no. When I make a statement, you interfere. When I ask a question, you don’t answer. For that, I have to press on for an answer and you don’t. You hesitate. And when I’m making a statement, you interfere. There is no decent way of coming and asking questions.
This is why I knew the moment I set eyes on you what sort of questioner has come. So be patient with me. Once you have asked your question, have courage and patience to listen to the answer. So the most important thing. No, no. Don’t touch me now. Now he’s asked the question. Let me answer. What happened to Huzoor-e-Akram Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam was that he was prevented from professing the fundamental article of Muslim faith. This has happened to Ahmadis and Ahmadis alone in the entire world after that time. And it has not happened to any other sect. There is no sect in Islam which has been prevented by the rest of the sects to say their prayers. Ahmadis are.
For that they are suffering in jails even today. They have been beaten almost to death. They have been treated most heinously and cruelly for the crime of saying Kalima la ilaha illa Muhammad Rasool Allah and for worshipping God. Which other sect has been prevented legally by legal action to profess what they believe and to preach what they believe? Show me one sect. Ahmadis, I can prove it from the ordinance if from nothing else, from the notorious ordinance of 26th of April 1984 that Ahmadis have been deprived of their fundamental right of preaching what they believe to be the truth. This was exactly what was done to Huzoor-e-Akram Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and his followers.
They don’t preach to us. It is a known fact of history that not only Huzoor-e-Akram Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam but all the previous prophets also were treated like this. And about Ahadrat Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam it was said and this is recorded that either you cease from believing such things and propagating your faith or either we will kill you or we will turn you out of this land and confiscate your properties and disperse you of everything. Is that not right? This is right? Exactly. And this is exactly what is being done to Ahmadis in Pakistan. Is it being done to yourself? Show me where a law was passed in any manner of speaking which prevented your sect that is their bandi from preaching their faith at the pain of punishment that they would be confiscated their properties and they would be exterminated from their lands and even they would be killed.
About whom a law is being passed that their faith is like being a renegade to Islam. Their faith is just apostasy. So they should be murdered en masse. This was the verdict against Ahadrat Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and his followers. So all the difficult things which are the bitterest are being fulfilled by us. And you the treaders of easy path you claim that you are exactly like Rasul-e-Kim Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and his followers? The liars, the false people can imitate the easy things the comfortable ways and habits not the difficult things not things for which they are bitterly punished. This is only a sign of truth. So whatever difficult paths were tread by Ahadrat Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and his followers they are being treaded today by us in the open broad daylight. The history is being recorded and stamped permanently indelibly on the pages of age.
And yet you don’t see them. So this is what he meant when he said ma ana alaihe wa asfabi you can see easily what I am, on what I am and what is my condition and my followers condition. Now some non-Ahmadi scholars insist that what he said was not what was happening to him but what he meant his sunnah and his faith. That could not be the answer because at that time Islam was one united Islam. There was absolutely no difference in doctrines or in even partial difference in views. The whole Islam was one Islam.
So the question never arose. The question arose regarding his position and his followers position vis-a-vis the opponents. So he must be referring to that and that is the only logical thing which can infer from this. So Ahmadiyya Jamaat is treading that difficult path which is not easy, which no false people can tread with such courage, with such perseverance and generation after generation and yet you along with all your might, the united might of the rest of the sects have failed to arrest the path of our progress.
Show me one place in the earth, even in Pakistan where for even for one single day or one single night the progress of Ahmadiyyat was arrested because of all these stringent measures taken against Ahmadiyyat. This is exactly again the position of the Prophet ﷺ and his followers. Despite everything their opponents did, he continued to progress. So if you want to apply your mind honestly and in a detached manner, not in an old way, it’s not difficult to find the truth, to recognize the truth. It’s so obvious.
If I can just say that it still doesn’t answer what I asked, really, not into the depth I expected. I’ll go back to it again. As you said that we joined forces, I can assure you that especially my school of thought, Sunni mazhab and I’m talking about the side which is in Pakistan that they have not joined forces with anybody else by saying this. They are the leading ones in Pakistan without a shadow of doubt who are foremost in persecution of Ahmadis and in demanding the most heinous punishment ever meted out to anyone in the history of mankind.
And yet you don’t know. No, that I can understand, yes. But when you say that joining forces with the others, I cannot accept that. This is what they are doing. They are inviting everybody to this and they say the whole Muslim Ummah is behind them. If you have never read such claims by your own scholars, I can provide you with the references to them. This is their claim that although we speak as Devbandis, but we don’t speak as Devbandis in this regard. As far as the Ahmadiyya issue is concerned, the whole Ummah is behind us. This is all through the history of their claims.
This has never been challenged by anybody. People, I would just say this, the people who do join forces with the others, as far as I’m concerned, would not belong to Sunni Madhav. What do you mean by that? They would not belong to Sunni Madhav anymore. They might say it. Some of them who have joined forces and they say on this platform, let’s get together. I don’t agree with them at all. I’m surprised at that. If you don’t agree with them, then you don’t belong to the whole mass of the Muslim world. Because they agree with each other in this.
So then you should belong to us then. There’s no other way left for you. I still belong to the Sunni sect and if somebody goes astray up to a certain extent, it doesn’t mean a thing to me. If you have the courage to say that in Pakistan, even if you want to belong to them, you’ll be disowned. You’ll be excommunicated. Because they’ll say the whole Ummah is behind this idea of persecution of Ahmadis and prosecution and you know, beastly treatment of Ahmadis. And who is this odd man out? Check him out. Or punish him exactly in the same manner.
So really you have to belong to us. If not in faith, in punishment at least. Can I just talk about just Tehreek-e-Khuddam-e-Ahl-e-Sunnat? What? Tehreek-e-Khuddam-e-Ahl-e-Sunnat. I know them very well. As far as I know, they haven’t joined forces with anybody else. For God’s sake, please. I haven’t even heard. Just a moment, please. They published their papers from Gujranwala and they have repeatedly raised their voice exactly in favor of what is happening in Pakistan at the hands of other Muslims. Repeatedly. And yet you say they have not joined forces. And also joining forces can be established beyond doubt from what happened in 1974 in the National Assembly of Pakistan.
The reporting that covered the final decision declared in headlines that all the 72 sects of Islam have joined forces in excommunicating Ahmadiyyat from Islam and only Ahmadiyyat. Now that is so obvious. So obviously an irrefutable argument in favor of Ahmadiyyat too. Why? Because previously, like you said, every sect used to claim that we are the one as against the 72, against the rest of the 72. On that fatal day in the National Assembly of Pakistan, it was so decided that we are 72 and that is one.
Whom will you check it on? Would you coin enough, please, to name that paper? Ahmadiyya Jamaat. Ahmadiyya Jamaat. No, the paper published in Gujranwala. On the 6th of September, Qudamuddin is the name of the paper. Qudamuddin is the name of the paper. I have been reading it. The cuttings come to me. So you think I am a liar? I am a false man? I am making these statements? As I said, I just come to ask questions. Not for debate at all. When I say that, I mean it. I know what I am saying. The sect is now referring to the 6th of September, 1974. What happened was what happened was all the united might of the Muslim sects declared a definition.
According to that definition, only Ahmadis could be chucked out of Islam and all the rest of the sects remained Muslims despite the fact that they had not reformed their views. Now what manner of honesty that was on the part of Qudamuddin to accept those as true Muslims whom they had categorically mentioned previously to be outside the veil of Islam because they fundamentally differed with their own sect on doctrines which they considered were essential doctrines of Islam.
For instance, Qudamuddin still had the belief that those who pray to the dead saints who expect things from them who go to the visit the graves of dead people and expect blessings from these things they are Mushrikeen. Am I right or am I wrong in this statement? Yeah, in that sense you should be right. Alright, I am right. And yet all the Braileys from 6th September 1970 84 74 onwards were declared and accepted to be true Muslims. The Qudamuddin considered those who believed that the prophecy was meant for Hazrat Ali and not for Rasul-Allah as positively deviating from the fundamentals of Islam so that they are outside the veil of Islam.
Those who believed among the Shias that because Prophet Muhammad was very similar in features to Hazrat Ali so Hazrat Jibrail misdelivered the revelation instead of delivering it to Rasul-Allah so Hazrat Ali delivered it to Rasul-Allah. This sect still exists and according to the definition of the 6th September 1974 they are Muslims and the Qudamuddin have also to agree to this fact that nobody can declare them outside the veil of Islam because the definition accepted by all the sects considers them to be within the veil of Islam. So they are Muslims. And what is this compromise? In fundamental truth can there be compromise? Can you honestly say that? All the 72 sects of Islam differ with each other more glaringly in fundamentals than Ahmadis can ever think of differing with you.
The only difference between Ahmadis and the other sects fundamental difference is that we believe that the status of the promised Messiah and the Mahdi would be that of a subordinate prophet. But we agree with you on the unity of God. We agree with you on the sanctity of Khilafat-e-R
