I am a Christian and I believe the Bible. I am reading the Quran for the second time and there are many, many things which are very good. But there’s a lot of things I don’t understand about Islam. Now, you accept that Jesus Christ was one of the prophets of God. He raised the dead. He healed every manner of sickness, no matter what. It says in the Bible he did many wonderful things which are not recorded here. We must wait for the future to see these things. Can you prove to me positively that he was not the Son of God as he claimed?
Also, he died at Calvary, according to my faith. He died on the cross. He never survived the cross at all, because the Roman soldiers were far too powerful in Jerusalem Don’t you think it would be advisable to go one at a time? A big part, but I am a little bit deaf, sir. If I attend to the first question, which is more fundamental, then we can turn to the second question as well.
The first question you have asked is, can I prove to you that Jesus Christ was not literally the Son of God as believed by some Christians? Is that right? So, all right, you can wait for a while. I’ll answer this part of the question. Then I’ll ask you to put the second part of the question again to me. Can you come and sit closer to me so that you can hear me? Please sit. I understand you are a bit hard of hearing, so you better keep close to me so that you can hear me directly. Right? Is it all right, this volume for you? Good.
The first question you have asked me is, can I prove to you that Jesus Christ was not literally the Son of God as understood by certain Christians? Right? Now, it is a very interesting question, but it should be asked from me to you. The direction of this question is unfortunately wrong. Why? I’m going to explain. If something happens unusual, very unusual, it is the person who believes in the unusual thing on whom the onus of proof lies, not on the person who rejects that unusual thing.
Like Shakespeare has described the situation in Julius Caesar. He says, if somebody says, I saw horses eating flesh, you don’t believe in that just because somebody has made a claim. That is the sense he is presenting this place. Because for animals like horses, it is very unusual to eat flesh, so always the onus of proof lies on those who claim that we saw animals eating flesh, horses eating flesh. They don’t ask others, if you don’t believe, prove that I am wrong. Obviously if you believe in some very unusual situation, you must prove it, or you are wrong. That is enough proof. So because in the universe, because in the religious world all over, we don’t find any such happening as Allah having a son.
So it’s so unusual for us to believe that whoever claims he must prove it beyond doubt. And the greater the claim, the greater should also be the evidence. Now what evidence the Christians have except for a few statements about Jesus Christ’s miracles which were unusual. Yet the Bible itself tells us that there were other people who showed the same miracles of the same nature. Raising from the dead has also been proved by the Bible to have been affected by others. Miracles of healing has been proved from the Bible to have been affected by others.
There were before Jesus Christ a person, Malik Shalem, who was born not only without a father but without a mother, according to the Bible. He had neither mother nor father. So he had a greater right to be called God, if that is the reason why you believe him to be God. If such miracles as are shown by Bible, even if they are taken at the face value, if such miracles are proved beyond doubt to have never been affected by any human being on earth, then of course that case has to be considered for a while. Then we’ll require a much greater proof of the actually happening of such miracles. And that proof, unfortunately, the Bible cannot establish. Because it’s only a claim.
There is no historical proof whatsoever. The New Testament was collected much later in history. The very first mention of Jesus Christ in the Roman history is found in year 34 after death. Previously, no Roman angels even mentioned the existence of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. So anything which might have happened during the World War Second, which was not recorded, which was not related by people living before you, even if I tell you that this thing happened to Hitler or in Hitler’s time, would you believe me? Yes, only simple men will believe. Not clever men. That is my answer. Most unfortunately. It takes a very simple man to believe in such a thing.
Otherwise the question is asked. It has to be asked. You have a right to ask me. At least that you will give me. If I tell you that Hitler did that and that and that and that to somebody, you say, all right, sir, I’ll believe you. But you’re talking 34 years after. And you must tell me how you came across it. What is the proof? Who saw it? Who witnessed this? And this is about ordinary things. But if I tell you something very unusual, that Hitler used to take dust into his hand and turn it into gold, then greater should be your objection to this. So for such an unusual thing to happen, with no documentary proof, with no historical proof, only a claim to gold, and that too contradictory. And that claim is not distinctive claim. It includes human beings into the same list of people who can bring about such miracles.
Even non-believers and heathen people, according to Bible, used to bring about, affect such healing as apparently was impossible. So… Why can’t we do it today? Because it never happened before. I tell you why. I tell you why. This is another proof of those so-called facts to be wrong, in little sense. I’ll come to that later. I believe in those, but in a different way. I’ll explain why and how. The other proof is that Jesus Christ tells us that you are wondering at what I perform. Don’t.
Even if you have faith on me, equal to a mustard seed, you will be able to perform all these things which I have been performing before you, and more. You’ll call mountains to walk towards you and they will come to you. Is that not written? So you want me to believe in a person in whom, in the entire Christendom, there is not a single person who has faith in him, even to the size or weight of his mustard seed, because he can’t perform these things. And yet Jesus could not be wrong. You are wrong in understanding the significance of these things. I believe in Jesus much more than the Christians of today do. And this is my proof.
Because they claim he literally performed these things, and they claim that when he said, if you have faith in me, even the smallest, you will also be able to perform these things, and they believe literally. Yet they can’t. So that shows that they have no faith in Jesus Christ whatsoever. I have, because I put a different meaning to them. The Holy Quran has taught me that religious terminology is not materialistic terminology, it’s a different spiritual terminology. It should be understood in that way, in that diction. So revival in the spiritual terminology is revival from that spiritually dead, not the physically dead. Healing in that terminology means healing of our spiritual and moral diseases. You know, we find among human beings, such people who are lepers, even worse than lepers, spiritually and morally. So in our idiom, normal idiom, we use such things.
That such a man is like a leper in his conduct, in his morality. Such a man is beastly. That doesn’t mean he turns into a leper really, or a beast, does he? But still it conveys something to us. Why when Jesus spoke in parables, and he took pride in the fact that he spoke in parables, why then when it was written about him that he would, one would come who would speak in parables? He’s taken too literally. Contrary to what he claims, contrary to what was said of him. It’s nonsensical. Consider the terminology, first understand the terminology of a science or a subject, and then the whole puzzle will be solved.
Unless you know the terminology of science, you’ll not understand that language. Unless you understand the terminology of economics, a layman will not understand these books, or those written in the same English as we read. So the terminology of religion has to be first determined, and then all the puzzles are solved. The son of God also is a terminology. It has been used elsewhere in the Bible. It has been used about other people than Jesus Christ. Children of God, not only one son, children of God. And also it is applicable to a whole race and a nation. Go to the earliest chapter of the Bible, Genesis, and you will find mention of children of God going to the children of Satan or heathen people and having fight and having relationship with them and so on and so forth.
God’s children marrying earthly people. What does it mean? Did God use to issue so many children in the past, and Jesus was the last child? He gave birth to? Everything stops eternally and wrong somehow, if you take these things too literally. Then Jesus should not be the first born, he should be the last born. Possibly right. So children of God and the sons of God should be understood according to the religious terminology. This is what Jesus himself said and pointed out to those who objected against him and said, you are indulging in blasphemy. He said, what blasphemy? Lesser people than me before have been called the same things, have been entitled the same things by you. He was referring to the Bible.
And you call this blasphemy? So no blasphemy as long as you understand the meaning in spirit. But if you take it too literally on the face value of things, then the whole system of religion would go wrong. Then you will not receive any message whatsoever. Children of God, sons of God is a comparative term which means those who are dear to Allah, dear to God, like his own children, like your children are to you. When pitched against others, you will always take sides with your children and not with those who are against your children. So this has been the history of religion in a nutshell. Whoever has been representing God, when people have been cruel to him or to them, if they are more in number, Allah has always treated him or them like his own children.
And to convey this to the others, that you will be punished if you do harm to them. This terminology was used and abandoned later on. But partially, occasionally, it is also used in the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran tells us that if you want to understand God or to have belief in God, you have a similar case in your son-father relationship. These are not the exact words, but I am conveying the meaning to you so that you can understand the fact. An illustration is made in the Holy Quran to point out that what is the proof of a son being a father’s son, a particular father’s son.
Nobody knows, nobody can say. Unless a woman is kept in entire captivity throughout her life, so that it can be positively established that nobody cast an eye upon her except the husband, nobody can offer a proof. But still you know. The Holy Quran points out two signs in them, their features, their habits and so on. So, a prophet should be judged if he has signs of God in him. That is the being’s son.
If he has signs of God in him, if godliness is apparent in his habits and character, then you should judge that he is from God, and then you should judge that he is true. Otherwise you can’t ever know whether God did speak to him or not. Whether God did send him to you or not. Because this is a hidden relationship, like the hidden relationship of a mother conceiving a child. So, this also explains, as I told you, the true meaning of son-father relationship. People who belong to God have signs among them, in them, in their character, in their attitude, which are godly signs. And they represent God on earth. And they should be judged by their conduct and their behavior. So Jesus called himself son of God, at the same time he repeatedly called himself son of man. To point out this difference.
To point out that don’t take me too literally. I am son of God in character, in flesh, in body. Literally speaking, I am son of man, no more than that. If I come back with the faith of a master suit, you will believe me? Yes, sir. Hallelujah. Thank you. See, so we believe in this because the holy Quran has also explained the similar terms used vis-a-vis other prophets. For instance, reviving from the dead. The holy Quran tells us about the holy prophet of Islam, yadu’kum lima yuhyikum. He calls you towards him so that he may revive you, give you life. That obviously means not life of a corporal nature, of a material nature, but life spiritual. We all hope to get into heaven, don’t we? Huh? We all hope to get into heaven.
That’s right, yes. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can come to God’s abode except by me. Exactly, exactly. That shows if you accept this claim of Jesus Christ entirely, even then it does not make the slightest difference to a Muslim’s attitude towards Jesus Christ or to other prophets. Does not make any difference. Because the other day I have been telling to some people, some followers of Jehovah’s Witnesses, some people belonging to Jehovah’s Witnesses, who particularly quote this with special emphasis, I am the way, I am the life and so on, omega, alpha and so on and so forth. I have been telling them that why don’t you study other religions?
The founders of the other religion have also made such claims. And they had to. Now, you will understand this much better in the perspective of religious history. If Jesus is to be taken, to be understood, in the sense that he was the only way and the only source of life, none other ever existed, then all the people before him were dead, declared dead. They were looking forward to him. No. Just a minute, just a minute. Looking forward to water does not save you from death if you don’t have water. Unless water comes to you, if you are thirsty and you have access to that water, it can’t save your life. People have been looking forward to water in deserts and all of them perished and died, except those who did reach water.
So the entire humanity before Jesus Christ may have been looking forward to his coming, but he did not come. So they died waiting, if that claims to be accepted. But no such reference is found in the Bible, that literally speaking, all the prophets earlier were waiting for their life towards Jesus Christ. None. They are declared categorically righteous and alive by God of the Bible. Abraham, look at him. Nor will you find even the remotest mention that Abraham was not alive but waiting for life to come at the hands of Jesus Christ. He is declared the father of prophets, the progeny of prophets.
A righteous person. So are other prophets declared in the Bible to be righteous. Living with God. These are the words used, living with their Lord. How is Jacob praised, and how is Isaac praised, and how is Joseph praised, and so on and so forth. So, don’t take that too literally either. People who have been awaiting, if they were awaiting in so many words, still, unless they had access to Jesus Christ, they should have died because he was the only source of life, and the only way. The way was not open before him. It was shut. And if they could still have access to life through a shut door, which had not even appeared, so why not continue with this?
Why to create a door at all? And after Jesus Christ came, and after people believed in him, what difference did it make? Literally speaking, substantially speaking, has man become less criminal? Are those who believe in Jesus Christ less criminal than those who do not believe in him? Is there the slightest difference in reality, in belief and non-belief in Jesus Christ, if you take Jesus Christ to be the saviour, in the sense that the Christians take? Otherwise, I can establish a difference in pre-Jesus era and after Jesus era. But I’m speaking, I’m attacking the Christian belief, not my own belief in Jesus. I know he was a prophet of God.
I know he brought about a great change, a revolution in human affairs when he came. But in the spiritual sense, not in the terms that he came, he took all the sins to himself, and the rest of the mankind was washed out of sins. Washed clean. If he did that, why are so many sinful Christians living in the world? I want to know, I’m interested. So what difference did he make? Quite a lot. What I mean to say is, billions and billions upon Christians believe in him, and yet have not got rid of that sin which they inhabit. There’s a difference in believing in him and believing on him. All right. Believe on him, and yet…
I’ll go back later. I know what you have in mind. I’m coming to it. And I leave, unfortunately for you, or fortunately, I should say, no room for escape in this regard. I assure you. You know, the signs of obliteration of sins are not to be decided by you or me. They are to be decided by the Bible itself, in which you and I both believe. The Bible tells us that as a punishment of sin, Allah ordained, God ordained, that women should bear children with painful labor, and man should earn his living with labor and effort. These are the two punishments of sin. Are they not? According to the Bible, according to the very first chapter of the Old Testament, this is the punishment of sin meted out by God to Adam and his progeny.
That from then on, and also a punishment was meted out to the snake, who was responsible for all this original sin and all that, misleading Adam and Eve. The punishment was that from now on, you will crawl on your belly, as if snakes before that snake never used to crawl on their bellies. We assume it had legs. Pardon? We assume it was an animal with legs. Not 700,000 years ago, 6,000 years ago. These snakes, the snakes have been crawling on their belly for millions of years. But forget about it. I’m coming to a different thing.
These are the three signs of obliteration of sin. Show me a single man who believed on Jesus Christ within his heart, truly, and got rid of these two punishments. From then on… I understand. Now you see… I know what you want to see. You want to see far from heaven. I want to understand things in the perspective of biblical statements. Otherwise this debate will enter into something which we’ll not be able to manage. I will translate sin in one way, you will translate it in another. I’ll say the sign of obliteration of sin should be this. You will say, no, it should be that.
Why to waste our time in this useless debate? Why not go to the original texts and find out how to establish that the sin has been obliterated? Well, I heard the gospel that Jesus died for me, personally. That is different. Every prophet dies for his people, you know? And I was asked the question… Even you can die for others if you suffer for them and you want to try to improve their lot. This is what it means. In spiritual terminology, in religious terminology, if a man suffers for humanity, wants to improve their lot, he dies for them. And prophets die more for the rest of the people than other performers on earth. Even non-prophets, even some non-religious people are known to have died for others. In the sense that although they are not personally suffering, they’re not involved directly, but they have such a fine nature.
They go on suffering for the sake of others. And they want to put themselves into trouble for the sake of other people to improve their lot, to ease their life. This is the meaning of dying for others. So did Jesus, we believe. He was put to cross. What suffering? Immense suffering, no doubt. But Allah saved him from that. According to us and according to the statement of the Bible, but that’s a long story. That you might have been already discussing with your friend who brought you, but we can go into that later. He was the promised
