No, but like I said, I don’t hold that view. I mean, a lot of ulemas may say a lot of things, but you don’t have to follow them if you feel that from the Quran it doesn’t specifically say… All right, if you don’t have to follow them, then follow us. Because we are coming closer, I mean, nationally. No, I just tell you something. You have to follow someone, of course. Yeah, no, but you have to follow the Quran. I mean, the thing is… That is exactly. But the Holy Quran tells you to follow the people sent by God. Yes, but I mean, that doesn’t mean that if you have… Suppose, I mean, a lot of… everyone died and you had a book of the Quran. That doesn’t mean that if you don’t have anything…
The point is that we have the Quran. Just a moment, please. Just a moment. We have the Quran. So, I mean, the idea is that we can have a guide to life. Yes. Right? And we can follow the book. Now, if we follow the Quran, I don’t think that any other person, any other Muslim has a right to say that I am doing something incorrect or… My dear, it is not as simple as that. It is lack of knowledge of religious affairs which leads you to such simplicity. I can assure you, there is no way, absolutely no way of adopting a position like you have done. What is Holy Quran? It can’t be followed unless interpreted, unless understood. Or can it be followed without understanding?
No, I am not saying that you can’t… without understanding. I am saying it. It is impossible to follow the Holy Quran without attributing a certain interpretation to its verses. And it is there that the mullahs differ. So, if you have to disagree with all of them on those interpretations, unless you concoct one for yourself, you cannot follow the Holy Quran. So, instead of making a new religion, I invited you to follow our sect. No, I am just saying, I am not making a new religion. I am just saying that, I mean, there are certain things, a lot of people, especially in Pakistan, because they are illiterate, they say a lot of things. No, you are talking in theories, please. No, no, I am just giving you a thing.
There are a lot of these people, they say a lot of things, but they are not based on facts. Because they have been created and, you know, like the mullahs, they have this attitude. People, they are not educated. And they have this power of telling people, OK, this is that, this is that. No, but I pointedly ask you now this question to, instead of discussing things in generalities, shifting from one place to another, why not particularize it? I quote an example.
There are certain verses of the Holy Quran which are interpreted by the Orthodox clergy in a manner that it makes incumbent upon everyone, every Muslim, to kill anyone who renegades from Islam, who after a while loses faith in Islam and chooses to adopt any other religion. Such a person, according to the considered opinion and verdict of these ulema, must be murdered within three days. Do you agree with them or do you not? What would you do? I wouldn’t agree with them because… No, all right. You don’t agree? No. So you will not act according to their interpretation of the Holy Quran, so you have to find another interpretation. And in the market, the only next interpretation would be that of us, that they have misunderstood and such people are not to be killed.
So you become partially Ahmadi. Can I just say something? I mean, you said that, when I started, I said that people can go wrong, right? So, I mean, if they have said something wrong, I don’t have to follow them, as I’ve emphasized. And the thing is that maybe I’m not sure about something. I mean, I just follow the Quran. I mean, obviously, you follow some, you know, the same principles. Yes. We have some differences, but I mean, the thing is, you follow, principally, you follow the same, you know, you pray the same way, you do a lot of things in a similar manner.
But that doesn’t mean that, I mean, I don’t have the right to study the Quran myself and ask other people. You have every right. And make my own choice. That’s quite right. You have every right. And to discard what I think is illogical because I have a mind of my own. And if I think that people, due to tradition or whatever, you know, things pass on and people change, you know, and they come out with things which are sort of totally not based on Quran itself. Yes. So, I mean… This is the most logical attitude one can take. I welcome this attitude.
There is no point of any debate on this. I fully endorse your view that every Muslim has a right to study the Holy Quran himself and make his own conclusions, judging from the various opinions expressed, from pros and cons as well, from all the different views he comes across, he should make his own choice through his own wisdom which Allah has given him. This is the best course. And for that, I invite you to a detailed study. Because, you know, you have to spend a lifetime doing it. It’s not as easy as that.
Because there are 72 sects differing on fundamentals mentioned in the Holy Quran. And you have to compare all their views and make your choices. So, it is possible that you entirely agree ultimately with one sect alone. And then you will ultimately land into that sect, after this tedious journey of comparing and everything. And maybe it is possible that you do not agree with them entirely, with any one of them. In that case, your position will be that, alright, partly he is right, partly that is right, partly that is right, I agree with him there and I disagree with him there. Will that not be? That is possible or not? Please, please, ask me.
So, that would be creating a new sect. A sect with partial agreement with some and partial disagreement, and partial agreement with others and partial disagreement. So, to take you out of this quagmire of confusion and not a lifetime, but many lifetimes of research and investigation. The Holy Prophet of Islam made the road to truth so easy, by telling us that at such a time, when such confusions have arisen, when people have differed with each other, when the scholars have differed with each other, and you don’t know what the truth is, Allah would send a guided one from himself, and he would be Hakaman Adaran. He would sit to pass judgement over these differences. And he would do it with absolute justice.
So, wait for that person then. And when he comes, then follow him. Now, this is a solution presented to us for such times, by no less a person than Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. So, my humble advice to you is this, that why try to invent a new solution which will not work anyway. Even if you believe sincerely in that. Because it would take really many lifetimes for you to study all these differences, and reach the ultimate truth, disagree with this and disagree with that, and so many things, and nobody would then follow you, and the whole effort of a lifetime would go waste.
Instead of that, why not follow the advice of Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, who advised the Ummah to be patient in such times, and wait for the Imam Mahdi to appear. When he appears, according to him, he would do all that for you. Because he will be guided by God. Now, this is another very important factor, which unfortunately you have forgotten, vis-a-vis the discussion on the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran categorically claims, that it is not a book, which can be read by any intelligent or learned people and correctly understood. Nowhere has this claim been made in the Holy Quran.
The very first verse of the Surah Fatiha tells us, Zalikal kitabu laa raiba feehae hudal lil muttaqeen It is of course a guidance without doubt. It goes on to relate to us. But only guidance for those who are God-fearing. So the precondition laid for the correct understanding of the Holy Quran is not knowledge, is not a modern attitude, is not wisdom of anybody. It is just the fear of Allah. So that shows one would be guided by this book in accordance with the level of his fear of God. So you should pray to Allah, for a higher level of fear of God before you enter into this exercise.
Secondly, the Holy Quran tells us, laa yamasuhu illal mutaharoon You will not be able to touch this book. No one will be able to touch this book, except those who have been purified by God. So where is that exercise left as a choice to everybody? You wish to understand this book, no doubt. You try to disagree with certain scholars and their extreme positions on certain issues, OK. But the Holy Quran tells you that the doors of entry to this book are locked, but for those whom Allah chooses to be purified. And then they begin to see the meaning of this book. This is why the Holy Prophet of Islam never advised anywhere, not in a single incident, that when differences appear between Muslim sects, you try to study the Holy Quran and find out your own meaning.
Nowhere has he said otherwise. It was the most simple answer should have appeared to him. It didn’t. The answer was, wait for the Imam to come. He would be guided by Allah. His name is the guided one. So for you in such a position, if you believe this Imam, this claimant of Qadian is not the true Imam, OK. The position for you is just to wait and to pray. And if you die in this state, honestly and sincerely, I assure you that Allah will be kind to you. So instead of wasting your time unnecessarily, why not adopt this easy position? Pray to Allah and wait for his decree to be passed. Pray to Allah honestly and sincerely that I find myself in a very difficult position. I’m educated differently, know very little of religion, but I want sincerely to understand the right path and the teachings of the Holy Quran. There is a claimant who says he has been sent by you and is guided by you. Somehow I have no faith. I can’t believe him. But you are the knowledgeable one.
So I request you to, first of all, guide me to him if he is the right one. Guide me away from him if he is not the guided one. But then guide me to the right path yourself. Because you have told me that لا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا الْمُتَهَارُونَ Nobody would be able to reach the meaning of the Holy Quran except the purified one. Can I just ask you a few questions? Firstly, do you think as a Muslim it’s your duty to increase your knowledge, I mean, if you have the capabilities? I have told you it is duty, this is why I have told you to pray to God. Not to depend on your, you know, there are two different things.
To search for truth, to investigate, is different. But to be haughty about it, and to be arrogant about it, and to believe that whatever decision you reach will be the right one against all the rest of the people, this is the attitude against which I am advising you. So this is why I told you to pray, and why should you take exception against this? No, you didn’t answer my question. I said, do you think it’s our duty as Muslims to gain knowledge? Yes, it is. And do you think it’s also our duty as Muslims to tell non-Muslims about Islam?
That’s right. Correct. Do you think, I mean, the other thing is that, I mean, for me, and many other people, right, then it becomes our duty automatically to understand the Quran and understand our religion, because the thing is, as you have pointed out, right, that these mullahs, they advocate a lot of things, and they say a lot of things, and if you start believing in them, that means you’ll definitely go on the wrong path, right? Yes, quite. So that means it automatically becomes my duty to try to understand the Quran, and try to get a meaning, I mean, if I can understand something. I fully agree. Yeah, but then just now you said that it’s only open, I mean, if it’s a universal law, stand by God.
This is not what I said. I pointed out that the Holy Quran tells you. Yeah, I’m just saying, but if you look at it again, if God has sent you a religion, it should be meant for everyone, and therefore everyone should have the capability of understanding what its meaning is, its message is. That should be sort of logical. I mean, he can’t send you something which, maybe there are certain meanings that you cannot understand. Yes, I agree, but you see, just a moment, I understand what you want to say, so listen to me, because I have come across these questions so often that the moment somebody starts, I immediately know where he’s leading to. So to save time, I interfere, not being impatient, because I know it will save your time and my time as well. If I’m wrong, then you can correct me.
The fact is that it is the duty, normally speaking, for everyone to acquire knowledge. Nothing is wrong about it, but the moment he begins to entertain doubts about some dogmas attributed to the Holy Quran by some scholars, then what he should do? That is the course when he finds himself in a difficult position, when various important scholars with better and higher knowledge of the Arabic and the Holy Quran begin to differ with each other. What does this poor man do in that position? And again this position is further aggravated by another complication.
These great ulema, you find, do not differ only in superficial things, but in fundamental things. So much so that one translates a verse of the Holy Quran as white, and the other as black. And no compromise can be brought between the two. If such a situation arises, what will you do? You said, I will study the Holy Quran. I said, yes, that is the answer. But you will not be able to do it on your own unless Allah guides you, you will not be able to reach the truth. So be resolute in this, but with prayer, along with the prayer, seeking help from Allah, go ahead and try to solve the issue.
This is what I said. And against this, no man can take any other view, any different view. I mean, this is the most logical position which comes to my mind. Don’t you agree? Yeah, but the other thing is, I just want to say, you said that I wanted to create a new sect. I don’t want to create a new sect. No, no, I didn’t say you want to. Don’t misquote me. I said, if you, I explained, there are 72 various sects other than Ahmadis. Now, if you spend the whole lifetime and God gives you a very long time in this earth, then ultimately you will find yourself in one of the positions mentioned by me earlier and repeated by me now, that either you will find yourself in disagreement partially with some, and in agreement partially with some. And this will be the general position.
In that case, you will be, you will not be able to belong to any of those sects. Will you belong to one of those sects with whom you partially differ? It’s not possible. Because when you say, I belong to that sect, that means you agree with the doctrines of that sect. And here you are, differing with certain very important doctrines of that sect, so you don’t belong to that. Now, if this continues to happen vis-a-vis every sect, then where will you find yourself? It’s either an utter confusion, not knowing where you stand, or you will have to make your own opinions.
You will have to make positive opinions on this and that and ultimately say that, look here, according to my studies, I find that Shias are right here and wrong there. The Sunnis generally are right here and wrong there. The Bedouins are right here and wrong there. Qadiyanis are right here and wrong there, and so on and so forth. This is the formation of a new sect, in essence. This is what I said. So you will be led to it willy-nilly. No, what I am trying to do, maybe you don’t understand what my aim is, or what I feel that as Muslims we should do, is we should try to come together as one, rather than sort of have these small differences. Ignoring differences? No, I’m just saying, try to dilute these differences. But most people say, but unfortunately this is most nerve-shattering for me, this solution.
You are a young man, why don’t you understand this position? It is not possible to ignore differences and get together. But how is it possible, let me tell you, how is it possible for you, if you believe that Hazrat Rasool-e-Karim sallallahu alaihi wa sallam had a human body, if you believe that, how is it possible for you, for the sake of removing sectarianism, to also agree with those who say that he had no body at all? Demonstrate to me how you can agree with both the parties. Can I just say something?
As a student in London, I have seen something that, I have seen so many students, they are all Muslims, they come from different sects and all that thing, but we are so together in our thing, when we do our functions or when we do these colleges and all that thing, we are always together, so I can see that there is some sort of brotherhood among us as Muslims. So also there is a brotherhood among Ahmadis between you. Yeah, but you are talking about sectarianism, I mean we have Shias, we have different communities, they all come together, even in our society, whenever we have talks and all that, all of us come together and we are as one brother.
So I can see that we can come together because we are Muslims. You see, that’s the basic thing that we have. Please understand this position, but please try to understand my position. This is a sort of agreement of death. Nothing more. Because you don’t know what sects you belong to, you won’t know what are the views held by the scholars of those sects, what you should officially hold. So it’s a lack of knowledge which is death. So a sort of agreement when you all go to dust and everything becomes dust. This is not the life of Islam. Islam wants you to be consciously holding certain views.
Now imagine in the same position of complete unity, suddenly you begin to preach to certain Christians and they ask you, what is the status of the Holy Prophet of Islam? And you tell them that he had no shadow. His status is that he was not born with flesh. It was the light of God which descended from heaven into the uterus of his mother, but did not get mixed up with the human flesh. It remained light and after a certain time he was born as a light.
His shadows are just apparent. His body was just a sort of apparition, nothing more. If you begin to tell somebody like this and suddenly somebody can’t hold patient with you anymore, he says, look here Mr. so and so, Mr. Christian. It is all hocus-pocus. It has nothing to do with Islam. It is the denial of the very fundamentals of Islam.
The founder of Islam never claimed any such thing. He was an ordinary human being and the Holy Qur’an declares categorically that, qul innama na basharun mislukum yuha ilaih na ma ilaahukum ilaahum ba’ith. Look here, declare to the people, I am just a man like you yourselves. No difference in belonging to humanity. So what then he begins to say this, suddenly the entire peace between you, which is the peace of ignorance, would be shattered to pieces. So such peace doesn’t mean anything. If you have to become active as you yourself positively declare that Islam is not just one-sided. You have to preach to others. Without that Islam is not complete.
So the moment you begin to preach to others, immediately you will realize that you have to first decide within you which view is correct and which view is not correct. What will you be preaching to others when you have not decided in between you? So there the differences are bound to appear. So like a sane man, apply yourself. What is wrong? Which hurts you, it also hurts me. What is wrong is this, that holding these religious differences, instead of solving them like human beings, like adults, by going into dialogue, like you and me are going into a dialogue, what they do is they start making statements of condemnation against the other sects.
They begin to incite the followers of certain sects against other sects to the extent that they say if you kill them, you will go straight to heaven. This is what is happening in Pakistan today. The Sunnis declaring that whoever kills a Shia would go straight
